youtube videos - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-29T05:32:38Zhttps://zenith.aero/forum/topics/youtube-videos?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI will try once more to conve…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-08:2606393:Comment:7277792020-07-08T22:08:36.448ZBob Pustellhttps://zenith.aero/profile/BobPustell
<p>I will try once more to convey my point. Yes, you may very well be legal, depending on the circumstances. I still maintain that if the wrong person (the hypothetical Fed with idle time, a crackpot who files a complaint with the Feds, whatever) you will be considered guilty until you prove otherwise. It's just how the system works. I would rather not open up Pandora's box so I try not to arouse official scrutiny in the first place.</p>
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<p>My example of the Bob Hoover medical debacle…</p>
<p>I will try once more to convey my point. Yes, you may very well be legal, depending on the circumstances. I still maintain that if the wrong person (the hypothetical Fed with idle time, a crackpot who files a complaint with the Feds, whatever) you will be considered guilty until you prove otherwise. It's just how the system works. I would rather not open up Pandora's box so I try not to arouse official scrutiny in the first place.</p>
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<p>My example of the Bob Hoover medical debacle is not meant to be a parallel to flying low - it is meant to point out that once the system moves against you (even if the move is not well founded or appropriate) you are in for a lot of hassle and expense setting things right. It took a guy like Hoover who had lots of powerful friends in high places several years and lots of expensive lawyer time to get his medical back. I have neighther the money nor the highly places friends for such a fight so i try to avoid it.</p>
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<p>So, to answer your final question to me -- "<span>If I’m not careful someday I will have to explain to someone that I was following the rules?" -- my answer is yes, you may very well have to do such a thing. Hoover had a current and proper medical, flew a proper airshow (with one Fed in the crowd who thought he looked off his game even though everyone else thought it was great) and lived a years long nightmare. </span></p>
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<p><span>You might feel that the thing you just did was legal, prudent and safe but if the wrong people witness it your life can get pretty miserable if there is any room for saying it was NOT legal prudent or safe. Even if you previal in the end the fight is not worth it to me.</span></p>
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<p><span>You are right in what you say. You win the tight core of the discussion, you are correct. I just don't want to get near the edges of the situation let alone get into the middle of it.</span></p>
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<p><span>Years ago when I still flew for a living I was getting a class from a ground school instructor about the FAR's and also our company regulations and rules. He made the remark that "your hearing improves at your hearing". It got a chuckle in the room at the time but I have never forgotten it. When your are on the carpet for some transgression everything you hear takes on new and important meaning. Why go there?</span></p> http://www.kathrynsreport.com…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-06:2606393:Comment:7273362020-07-06T13:20:21.682Zchristopher fryatthttps://zenith.aero/profile/christopherfryatt
<p><a href="http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=low+level+pass" target="_blank">http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=low+level+pass</a></p>
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<p>Had he lived ; based on ntsb findings I think a violation would be in order, A retired Fed once told me regulations are there to handle foreseen situations, addressing the publics perception. Nowadays the FAA is not so much of a regional fiefdom ( or so they say)... differing regions, sadly operate under differing opinions or…</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=low+level+pass" target="_blank">http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=low+level+pass</a></p>
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<p>Had he lived ; based on ntsb findings I think a violation would be in order, A retired Fed once told me regulations are there to handle foreseen situations, addressing the publics perception. Nowadays the FAA is not so much of a regional fiefdom ( or so they say)... differing regions, sadly operate under differing opinions or interpretations of regulation</p> Hi Bob.
How does something g…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-06:2606393:Comment:7273942020-07-06T00:14:17.748ZJim and Amelia Isaacshttps://zenith.aero/profile/JimIsaacs
<p>Hi Bob. </p>
<p>How does something going wrong affect whether or not I’m in violation of an FAR? Request an example please? Regarding Mr. Hoover, can you clarify how a medical clearance relates to flying below 500 AGL? Your statement about the wrong person seeing me do something that is not in violation of any FAR is interesting. If I’m not careful someday I will have to explain to someone that I was following the rules?</p>
<p>Hey Gary,</p>
<p>Not splitting hairs, and not sure what each…</p>
<p>Hi Bob. </p>
<p>How does something going wrong affect whether or not I’m in violation of an FAR? Request an example please? Regarding Mr. Hoover, can you clarify how a medical clearance relates to flying below 500 AGL? Your statement about the wrong person seeing me do something that is not in violation of any FAR is interesting. If I’m not careful someday I will have to explain to someone that I was following the rules?</p>
<p>Hey Gary,</p>
<p>Not splitting hairs, and not sure what each situation was regarding high speed low passes at your airport. I’m just challenging the statement that if one is flying over a runway or anywhere else for that matter, below 500 ft and not taking off or landing-one is in violation of a federal law and subject to enforcement action. Because that’s not true. </p> High speed passes are a regul…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-05:2606393:Comment:7272982020-07-05T19:35:21.843ZGary Welchhttps://zenith.aero/profile/GaryWelch
<p>High speed passes are a regular occurrence at our airport. Its a show-off stupid move that puts other pilots at risk. You can split the hairs on the FARs all you want. IMO pilots that do this are idiots.</p>
<p>High speed passes are a regular occurrence at our airport. Its a show-off stupid move that puts other pilots at risk. You can split the hairs on the FARs all you want. IMO pilots that do this are idiots.</p> When presented exactly as you…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-03:2606393:Comment:7270882020-07-03T22:59:56.511ZBob Pustellhttps://zenith.aero/profile/BobPustell
<p>When presented exactly as you describe and assuming nothing goes wrong and assuming you are not seen by a Fed with time on his hands, you are fine and able to make a strong arguement for legality.</p>
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<p>Bob Hoover took years and many thousands of dollars to get his ticket back when a Fed arbritrarily decided to jerk his medical. Other pilots have lost their tickets when doing low level stupidity in front of a group at a small fly-in gathering at a small grass field. I saw that one…</p>
<p>When presented exactly as you describe and assuming nothing goes wrong and assuming you are not seen by a Fed with time on his hands, you are fine and able to make a strong arguement for legality.</p>
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<p>Bob Hoover took years and many thousands of dollars to get his ticket back when a Fed arbritrarily decided to jerk his medical. Other pilots have lost their tickets when doing low level stupidity in front of a group at a small fly-in gathering at a small grass field. I saw that one coming down personally.</p>
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<p>So, for me, it's not worth walking or flying up to the edge of legality and looking over the edge. I stay well within the boundries and have enjoyed my flying privilege for a bit over a half century now. Hopefully I can go a decade or two more without upsetting the authorities.</p>
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<p>So, to answer your scenario question, Jim/Amelia, I think in that case you are not in violation and can make a strong arguement in that direction. However, if the wrong person sees it you might be explaining yourself in uncomfortable circumstances for quite some time. </p> Ahh, don’t blend safety, good…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-02:2606393:Comment:7269602020-07-02T16:21:43.277ZJim and Amelia Isaacshttps://zenith.aero/profile/JimIsaacs
<p>Ahh, don’t blend safety, good judgement, and legal all together again, allow me to repeat my question; in this scenario, have I violated any FARs?</p>
<p>Ahh, don’t blend safety, good judgement, and legal all together again, allow me to repeat my question; in this scenario, have I violated any FARs?</p> anyone can perform said maneu…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-02:2606393:Comment:7269572020-07-02T15:11:54.039Zchristopher fryatthttps://zenith.aero/profile/christopherfryatt
<p>anyone can perform said maneuver …...if quizzed by FAA, as PIC I elected to go-around, …..so why didn't ya climb he says.</p>
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<p>I spent a lot of time down low flying at 100 KIAS in helos, let me say that time seems to change once normal turns abnormal.</p>
<p>now assuming it is a private airport one could argue that no other traffic is around.</p>
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<p>public field ….Above you the unpowered aircraft gliding from above mite not be seen</p>
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<p>Wacking a bird might…</p>
<p>anyone can perform said maneuver …...if quizzed by FAA, as PIC I elected to go-around, …..so why didn't ya climb he says.</p>
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<p>I spent a lot of time down low flying at 100 KIAS in helos, let me say that time seems to change once normal turns abnormal.</p>
<p>now assuming it is a private airport one could argue that no other traffic is around.</p>
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<p>public field ….Above you the unpowered aircraft gliding from above mite not be seen</p>
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<p>Wacking a bird might suddenly change you into an uncontrolled hazard. INSTANTLY</p>
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<p>most all have exhibited the mentioned action of low pass, but doesn't make it any more safe or legal..</p>
<p>Great discussion over at avweb comment section of the glider video</p>
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<p><a href="https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/impromptu-air-show-act-nets-seven-month-suspension/" target="_blank">https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/impromptu-air-show-act-nets-seven-month-suspension/</a></p> Hmmm...well a bird is not a p…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-02:2606393:Comment:7268702020-07-02T14:52:46.510ZJim and Amelia Isaacshttps://zenith.aero/profile/JimIsaacs
<p>Hmmm...well a bird is not a person or property, unless you mean the faster one flies the less reaction time exists to avoid a B1RD aircraft? Your point is taken on the unexpected, as I suppose a previously unseen aircraft could suddenly appear in front of me but that could happen anywhere, (and it certainly has) to include during a go around even if had I intended to land. I'd have to maneuver to avoid if I could, but hey, interjecting an unseen aircraft crossing the departure path of the…</p>
<p>Hmmm...well a bird is not a person or property, unless you mean the faster one flies the less reaction time exists to avoid a B1RD aircraft? Your point is taken on the unexpected, as I suppose a previously unseen aircraft could suddenly appear in front of me but that could happen anywhere, (and it certainly has) to include during a go around even if had I intended to land. I'd have to maneuver to avoid if I could, but hey, interjecting an unseen aircraft crossing the departure path of the runway in use and directly in my flight path means it could be a bad day regardless of my airspeed or altitude, and would have nothing to do with a powerplant failure. Actually, every close call I've had was well away from any airport. If it wasn't evident in my scenario above ("...<span>miles away from any congested area)</span>, as I fly down the runway ahead of me are hundreds of acres of farm fields with a few sparse tree copses. No farmers out there on their tractors either. So I think what you meant to bring forth is, there's what's good judgment and there's what's legal? That's a good point.</p> FAR 91.119 Minimum Safe Altit…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-02:2606393:Comment:7268602020-07-02T14:06:01.320Zchristopher fryatthttps://zenith.aero/profile/christopherfryatt
<p>FAR 91.119 Minimum Safe Altitudes: General. (I'll omit the sections that cover helicopters, weight shift control aircraft, and powered parachutes) states: <br></br>"Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:<br></br>(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface."</p>
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<p>you answered your own question, by providing a hazard to others…</p>
<p>FAR 91.119 Minimum Safe Altitudes: General. (I'll omit the sections that cover helicopters, weight shift control aircraft, and powered parachutes) states: <br/>"Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:<br/>(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface."</p>
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<p>you answered your own question, by providing a hazard to others (perhaps unseen aircraft in the area, or even Birds), mr slick might not react so fast 100 agl at 160 IAS</p>
<p></p> Here we go.
Bob I'm with you…tag:zenith.aero,2020-07-02:2606393:Comment:7268552020-07-02T13:40:53.877ZJim and Amelia Isaacshttps://zenith.aero/profile/JimIsaacs
<p>Here we go.</p>
<p>Bob I'm with you on your opening statement "<span>One also needs to understand the regulations to avoid doing things that can get one into trouble." However, let's explore your statement "...If that pass takes you down the runway below 500 feet you are illegal, pure and simple." </span></p>
<p><span>FAR 91.13 (Careless or Reckless Operation) subparagraph <span class="enumxml" id="a">(a) states:</span> "<span class="et03">Aircraft operations for the purpose of air…</span></span></p>
<p>Here we go.</p>
<p>Bob I'm with you on your opening statement "<span>One also needs to understand the regulations to avoid doing things that can get one into trouble." However, let's explore your statement "...If that pass takes you down the runway below 500 feet you are illegal, pure and simple." </span></p>
<p><span>FAR 91.13 (Careless or Reckless Operation) subparagraph <span class="enumxml" id="a">(a) states:</span> "<span class="et03">Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation.</span> No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another."</span></p>
<p><span>Now that's a catch-all that leaves us wide open to enforcement actions for just about anything, depending upon...well, let's use the low level runway pass. </span></p>
<p><span>FAR 91.119 Minimum Safe Altitudes: General. (I'll omit the sections that cover helicopters, weight shift control aircraft, and powered parachutes) states: </span></p>
<p><span>"Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:</span></p>
<p>(a)<span> </span><i>Anywhere.<span> </span></i>An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface."</p>
<p>I'd say you're good on this one flying down the centerline of a long, wide paved runway- next is:</p>
<p>"(b)<span> </span><i>Over congested areas.<span> </span></i>Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft."</p>
<p>Let's use a scenario where a public use airport has a runway 6,000 ft x 100 ft. and is miles away from any congested area as depicted on the current Aeronautical chart. Yeah, out in the middle of almost nowhere, Next is:</p>
<p>"(c)<span> </span><i>Over other than congested areas.<span> </span></i>An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure."</p>
<p>The runway at this airport I'm using as an example is more than 500 ft. from any airport structure, unless you want to consider the lighting, wind indicator, or other runway visual aids as structures- but I'll use airport hangars and buildings in my example. There are no houses, barns, or other dwelling structures within a half mile radius of the airport property. </p>
<p>So it's a Sunday morning, there's no one else using the airport, no persons, vessels, or structures within 500 ft of the runway. There's no FBO, no maintenance guy on the Gator driving along the taxiway, and all the aircraft based there are tucked away in their hangars well beyond 500 ft from the runway centerline that I'm flying over. My power setting is irrelevant. The only thing relevant to indicated airspeed we need to be aware of here fall under FAR 91.117<span class="enumxml" id="a">:</span></p>
<p><span>(a) "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.)." and</span></p>
<p><span>"(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section."</span></p>
<p><span>So we have a speed limit unless otherwise authorized (e.g. airshows) of 200, or 250 mph depending. In my example, let's say the airport is nontowered, in Class E airspace, and my IAS is 160 mph (no I'm not in my 701 :)</span></p>
<p><span>I make all my inbound, arrival, and fly the published pattern making position calls on the CTAF, to include a "Low approach with a straight out departure to the West" and fly the centerline at 160 MPH and 100 ft above the runway. I never stated any intent to land the aircraft.</span></p>
<p><span>Actually, I could throw in a wrinkle here- I'm in an aircraft never certified with an electrical system, I don't even have a radio. I entered the pattern as recommended in the AIM or as per published for that airport. An aircraft running up on the ramp over 500 ft away has no idea what my intentions are. </span></p>
<p><span>Pure and simple, have I done anything illegal?</span></p>
<p><span>Grab your coffee and let's discuss!</span></p>
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