Comments - Flight Test Complete. - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-28T14:18:09Zhttps://zenith.aero/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2606393%3ABlogPost%3A254504&xn_auth=noI have talked to FAA DAR's ex…tag:zenith.aero,2013-02-04:2606393:Comment:2637682013-02-04T21:42:56.303ZDanal Esteshttps://zenith.aero/profile/DanalEstes
<p>I have talked to FAA DAR's extensively about a second person during Phase I. I tried to pull the "Required for logging data" card, and many other scenarios, including an instructor for Dual Received and/or time in type or similar. All "required" in some way. All No Go. </p>
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<p>"Required" means "Required by FARs to conduct that specific flight operation" and nothing else. I have been unable to come up with a flight operation that requires two pilots and is also legal within the…</p>
<p>I have talked to FAA DAR's extensively about a second person during Phase I. I tried to pull the "Required for logging data" card, and many other scenarios, including an instructor for Dual Received and/or time in type or similar. All "required" in some way. All No Go. </p>
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<p>"Required" means "Required by FARs to conduct that specific flight operation" and nothing else. I have been unable to come up with a flight operation that requires two pilots and is also legal within the 'normal' Operating Limitations Phase 1 testing of our aircraft category/class/type.</p>
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<p>No second seaters in Phase I. Period. Anything else is wishful thinking.</p>
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<p>Unless you are willing to look at a fine and/or suspension and/or revocation if caught.</p> Louis & Joe, I tend to a…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-19:2606393:Comment:2548352012-12-19T21:40:39.921ZPaul Mulwitzhttps://zenith.aero/profile/PaulMulwitz
<p>Louis & Joe, I tend to agree with Joe that only required crew members are allowed to fly in a plane in phase I flight test. This may be open to interpretation, but those interpretations I have heard clearly favor the notion that in a plane like a Zodiac only one person is allowed.</p>
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<p>That said, it makes a lot of sense for the builder of an experimental plane to do some of the flight testing. This should include a checkout in the type or the actual plane before attempting…</p>
<p>Louis & Joe, I tend to agree with Joe that only required crew members are allowed to fly in a plane in phase I flight test. This may be open to interpretation, but those interpretations I have heard clearly favor the notion that in a plane like a Zodiac only one person is allowed.</p>
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<p>That said, it makes a lot of sense for the builder of an experimental plane to do some of the flight testing. This should include a checkout in the type or the actual plane before attempting solo flight. I have seen instructors give checkout assistance in home built planes before they completed phase I. This makes a lot of sense even if it may be against the rules.</p>
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<p>The one thing I would recommend against is a rusty pilot with no time in type attempting to fly a new home built plane. This is a formula for disaster. It makes more sense to get a checkout in the experimental plane first whether the rules support this idea or not. Ideally the checkout will be accomplished in a plane already completely done with flight test, but this is not always possible.</p> Hi Joe,
I think you are corre…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-19:2606393:Comment:2548272012-12-19T20:29:47.900ZLouis W. Otthttps://zenith.aero/profile/LouisWOtt
<p>Hi Joe,</p>
<p>I think you are correct. The PIC of an experimental during phase 1 tests can choose to have a crewmember to assist him in doing whatever tasks he deems necessary. This could be recording instrument data, watching for traffic, or something else. It is true that most experimental flight tests probably don't require another crewmember, but it isn't prohibited.</p>
<p>Hi Joe,</p>
<p>I think you are correct. The PIC of an experimental during phase 1 tests can choose to have a crewmember to assist him in doing whatever tasks he deems necessary. This could be recording instrument data, watching for traffic, or something else. It is true that most experimental flight tests probably don't require another crewmember, but it isn't prohibited.</p> Hi Louis,
Sorry to jump in he…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-19:2606393:Comment:2547382012-12-19T19:54:18.910ZJoe Zinkelhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JoeZinkel
<p>Hi Louis,</p>
<p>Sorry to jump in here, if I understand you correctly, you are planning on flying with a CFI during phase one? according to my Tech counsler who works at EAA in Oshkosh this is not legal. A crew member is allowed if there is a situation that requires a co-pilot. Most experimentals rarely need this.</p>
<p>Joe</p>
<p>Hi Louis,</p>
<p>Sorry to jump in here, if I understand you correctly, you are planning on flying with a CFI during phase one? according to my Tech counsler who works at EAA in Oshkosh this is not legal. A crew member is allowed if there is a situation that requires a co-pilot. Most experimentals rarely need this.</p>
<p>Joe</p> Hi Paul,
Thanks for your offe…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-18:2606393:Comment:2546092012-12-18T18:43:44.811ZLouis W. Otthttps://zenith.aero/profile/LouisWOtt
<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>Thanks for your offer and suggestion about flying in low winds at the beginning. I should be able to do that since the big winds don't begin until April or so. Runway 31 (recently changed from 30) at KDLS does align with the prevailing wind so that is a help.</p>
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<p>I think I have something worked out for the first flights. I'll have the local instructor fly it the first time. Since I haven't flown anything in about 15 years, I need a BFR and TD refresh. He suggested…</p>
<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>Thanks for your offer and suggestion about flying in low winds at the beginning. I should be able to do that since the big winds don't begin until April or so. Runway 31 (recently changed from 30) at KDLS does align with the prevailing wind so that is a help.</p>
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<p>I think I have something worked out for the first flights. I'll have the local instructor fly it the first time. Since I haven't flown anything in about 15 years, I need a BFR and TD refresh. He suggested that I have him go with me in my airplane and I can get familiarization in the airplane and get me legal at the same time. Actually, he would be PIC until I was signed off. The DAR said this would all be within the phase 1 rules. The PIC can have whoever he wants as a crew member during phase 1.</p> Louis, Send me an email when…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-18:2606393:Comment:2548542012-12-18T12:07:31.413ZPaul Mulwitzhttps://zenith.aero/profile/PaulMulwitz
<p>Louis, Send me an email when you get closer to flying your Zodiac. If you need some stick time I'm sure we can work something out.</p>
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<p>On your first flight - I would recommend you wait for low winds before flying your plane. A few thousand feet of ceiling would be a good idea too. High winds are a real nightmare in a Zodiac because of the low wing loading. Any instability will have you bouncing around the cockpit. This is not the kind of problem you want on your first…</p>
<p>Louis, Send me an email when you get closer to flying your Zodiac. If you need some stick time I'm sure we can work something out.</p>
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<p>On your first flight - I would recommend you wait for low winds before flying your plane. A few thousand feet of ceiling would be a good idea too. High winds are a real nightmare in a Zodiac because of the low wing loading. Any instability will have you bouncing around the cockpit. This is not the kind of problem you want on your first flight.</p>
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<p>The Dalles is a nice airport for your testing. It has runways going every which way so you don't have to deal with heavy cross winds.</p>
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<p>Good luck,</p>
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<p>Paul</p>
<p>psm@att.net</p>
<p></p> Hi Paul,
I've completed my 60…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-17:2606393:Comment:2545732012-12-17T19:28:59.963ZLouis W. Otthttps://zenith.aero/profile/LouisWOtt
<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>I've completed my 601 XL B TD (Corvair) and waiting for the DAR to come and have a look. I'm located not too far from you up river at The Dalles airport. I appreciate your reporting on your phase 1 testing and especially the lack of yaw stability and your attempted fix. I will be looking for similar characteristics when I fly mine. The weather is poor right now, but when it improves in the spring we have near continual high winds so when I do the first flights it'll be a toss…</p>
<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>I've completed my 601 XL B TD (Corvair) and waiting for the DAR to come and have a look. I'm located not too far from you up river at The Dalles airport. I appreciate your reporting on your phase 1 testing and especially the lack of yaw stability and your attempted fix. I will be looking for similar characteristics when I fly mine. The weather is poor right now, but when it improves in the spring we have near continual high winds so when I do the first flights it'll be a toss up whether during low winds and ceilings or clear skies and high wind. It's always something...</p>
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