Comments - Zenith CH 650 vs. Sonex: "Competitive Comparison" - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-29T08:10:22Zhttps://zenith.aero/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2606393%3ABlogPost%3A173471&xn_auth=noThis is a great letter Sebast…tag:zenith.aero,2012-12-01:2606393:Comment:2514352012-12-01T02:01:22.163ZJoe Scheibingerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JoeScheibinger
<p>This is a great letter Sebastien. Here are the reasons why I picked the Zenith over the Sonex. I am lucky enough to live in Oshkosh where the Sonex is manufactured. I know John personally, and even live on the same street as John! I did consider the Sonex before I bought my Zenith. The wing spar on the Sonex is made from extruded aluminum and the die for it is the property of Sonex! If Sonex ever was forced out of business there would never be a possibility of replacing the wing spar in case…</p>
<p>This is a great letter Sebastien. Here are the reasons why I picked the Zenith over the Sonex. I am lucky enough to live in Oshkosh where the Sonex is manufactured. I know John personally, and even live on the same street as John! I did consider the Sonex before I bought my Zenith. The wing spar on the Sonex is made from extruded aluminum and the die for it is the property of Sonex! If Sonex ever was forced out of business there would never be a possibility of replacing the wing spar in case of an accident or rebuild. That is completely unacceptable. I have no idea why it was designed that way. For a larger person, the Sonex is a single place airplane, not just for weight, but because of the cramped cockpit. In fact you can build a Sonex as a single place aerobatic plane and sit in the middle! It makes a perfect single place airplane. Having the fuel tank in the cockpit is unacceptable to me. I hated that most of all after owning an Ercoupe. The Sonex Designer who I hold in high esteem with his knowledge of aircraft design, takes a very hard line to builders who deviate from the plans in any way. If you decide to install an engine other than his version of the VW or the Jab, you are shunned from the Sonex community. While EAA was fighting to keep Ethanol out of aircraft fuel tanks, Sonex took a grant from the ethanol community and used it to advertise a "green" airplane, a slap in the face to EAA. If you are going to lay out tens of thousands of dollars for a homebuilt aircraft you want to make sure you can take it anywhere in comfort and style. Both are lacking in the Sonex. Both aircraft are great little planes! but the Sonex is a novelty in comparison. The Sonex has only 2 engine options. One is considered under powered my most people, and one overpowered with cooling problems. I lost count on how many different engines work just fine on a Zenith! The resale value on the Zenith holds up much better than a Sonex. Most of the flying 650's I have seen advertised are selling for about 120% of kit price. Just ask yourself, when my plane is finished who would I like to take for a ride! That decision is a lot harder in a Sonex!</p>
<p></p> I´ve a friend that has a Sone…tag:zenith.aero,2012-08-05:2606393:Comment:2300242012-08-05T21:57:40.284ZAlberto Martinhttps://zenith.aero/profile/AlbertoMartin
<p>I´ve a friend that has a Sonex, there are less than 15-20 in Spain, and he is really happy with it. One exception, the Aerovee engine. He had had many cooling problems, vapour locks, etc. He allways tells me "if I had money I would have chosen the jabiru 3300 like your XL" ....</p>
<p>I´ve a friend that has a Sonex, there are less than 15-20 in Spain, and he is really happy with it. One exception, the Aerovee engine. He had had many cooling problems, vapour locks, etc. He allways tells me "if I had money I would have chosen the jabiru 3300 like your XL" ....</p> Just stumbled across this blo…tag:zenith.aero,2012-03-28:2606393:Comment:2053552012-03-28T13:49:25.408ZJake Reynahttps://zenith.aero/profile/JakeReyna
<p>Just stumbled across this blog. When I was shopping for a kit in 2005, I looked at the XL, Sonex and Kitfox. The biggest flaw with the Sonex, IMO, was cabin width, 40", but that means 38". I have broad shoulders 24", weigh 190 pounds. Since I'm building an airplane, why do I want to be packed like tuna? If I wanted to carry a passenger, I'm limited to someone that is 14" wide. The Sonex is fast with the Jabiru 3300, but I'd be flying alone, what's the point of not sharing?</p>
<p>Since that…</p>
<p>Just stumbled across this blog. When I was shopping for a kit in 2005, I looked at the XL, Sonex and Kitfox. The biggest flaw with the Sonex, IMO, was cabin width, 40", but that means 38". I have broad shoulders 24", weigh 190 pounds. Since I'm building an airplane, why do I want to be packed like tuna? If I wanted to carry a passenger, I'm limited to someone that is 14" wide. The Sonex is fast with the Jabiru 3300, but I'd be flying alone, what's the point of not sharing?</p>
<p>Since that time 2005, the RV-12 and S-19 have come along, both nice airplane, but bang for the buck, you're better off with a 650. More engine options and the possibility of being 100 pounds lighter, if you focus on keeping it light.</p>
<p></p> The response probably echoes…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-13:2606393:Comment:1744352011-11-13T14:02:37.592ZDan Sherburnhttps://zenith.aero/profile/DanSherburn
<p>The response probably echoes my research precisely. When looking at kits (obviously my 750 has a different mission than does a Sonex) I based my ultimate decission on:</p>
<p> * manufacturer offering test flights</p>
<p> * availability (and general attitude) of factory sales and support mechanisms</p>
<p> * engine choice (big one). I like the "common as dirt" O-200</p>
<p> * completeness of kit. Kit prices can be misleading if you don't add up what's not included (hardware,…</p>
<p>The response probably echoes my research precisely. When looking at kits (obviously my 750 has a different mission than does a Sonex) I based my ultimate decission on:</p>
<p> * manufacturer offering test flights</p>
<p> * availability (and general attitude) of factory sales and support mechanisms</p>
<p> * engine choice (big one). I like the "common as dirt" O-200</p>
<p> * completeness of kit. Kit prices can be misleading if you don't add up what's not included (hardware, etc).</p>
<p> </p> When I was engine searching I…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-10:2606393:Comment:1739092011-11-10T15:17:19.089ZChris Aysenhttps://zenith.aero/profile/ChrisAysen
<p>When I was engine searching I had considered the AeroVee until another 701 builder before me mounted one on his plane and was completely dissatisfied with it's apparent lack of power. Some of the post above confirm that. With that said I don't think Sonex can compare itself to Zenith as far as aerodynamic design goes. The Sonex is over 200 lbs lighter in gross, narrower, and built for low G aerobatics. The 650 serves a different purpose; more of a cross-country traveling in style plane. The…</p>
<p>When I was engine searching I had considered the AeroVee until another 701 builder before me mounted one on his plane and was completely dissatisfied with it's apparent lack of power. Some of the post above confirm that. With that said I don't think Sonex can compare itself to Zenith as far as aerodynamic design goes. The Sonex is over 200 lbs lighter in gross, narrower, and built for low G aerobatics. The 650 serves a different purpose; more of a cross-country traveling in style plane. The only reason I see that they (Sonex) would make a comparison is because of the success Zenith is having. I'm not knocking the Sonex because I had considered building one myself. I have seen some videos on the Sonex that are impressive; even with the AeroVee. But in my opinion it does not compare to the 650; they are just TOO different planes.... I personally believe the reason Sonex does not support other engines is because of inherent cost. They have designed an engine (AeroVee) that takes their airframe designs well enough into the aerodynamic envelope that they feel they do not need to support other engine choices. In the same token, in MY opinion, Zenith has achieved enough success that they feel they are able to support a variety engines without it affecting negatively on their business. Sonex would probably much better off to not compare the Sonex or any of its other models to the 650.</p> I, too, have built (and am cu…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-09:2606393:Comment:1735252011-11-09T15:38:16.933ZJ. Davishttps://zenith.aero/profile/jdavis
<p>I, too, have built (and am currently flying) a Sonex, and am currently building a CH750. I have no intention of being drawn in to a flame war regarding CH650 vs Sonex, other than to state that I am *extremely* happy with my Sonex in *every* way. It does *exactly* what the company states it will do (unlike other companies I can think of).</p>
<p>Who wrote that 'response'? It is chock full of misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance of the facts, and just plain errors. The choice, to…</p>
<p>I, too, have built (and am currently flying) a Sonex, and am currently building a CH750. I have no intention of being drawn in to a flame war regarding CH650 vs Sonex, other than to state that I am *extremely* happy with my Sonex in *every* way. It does *exactly* what the company states it will do (unlike other companies I can think of).</p>
<p>Who wrote that 'response'? It is chock full of misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance of the facts, and just plain errors. The choice, to me, and one I researched in depth before setteling on the Sonex, was simply a no-brainer.</p>
<p>I have now said all I intend to say on this subject.</p> I have built two Zenith 601XL…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-09:2606393:Comment:1737542011-11-09T13:06:58.611ZJim Pensingerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JimPensinger
<p>I have built two Zenith 601XL and one Waiex so feel qualified to comment on them. My first XL was built from a kit and finished in 2005. I had 770 hours on it when I had a bad takeoff accident in 2009 and totaled the plane. I am alive now partially because of the engineering of the airplane. I then bought a partially complete Waiex from another builder and completed it in 2010. I flew it for 100 hours that year then traded it for another XL in 2010. My current XL was completed, with…</p>
<p>I have built two Zenith 601XL and one Waiex so feel qualified to comment on them. My first XL was built from a kit and finished in 2005. I had 770 hours on it when I had a bad takeoff accident in 2009 and totaled the plane. I am alive now partially because of the engineering of the airplane. I then bought a partially complete Waiex from another builder and completed it in 2010. I flew it for 100 hours that year then traded it for another XL in 2010. My current XL was completed, with the upgrade, in May 2011 and I now flown it 155 hours.</p>
<p>Both 601XL and Waiex airplanes are good airplanes and both have their good and, for me, bad points. The 601XL is much larger, more stable with longer wings and wing dihedral, greater range (I put the optional fuel tank upgrade and have over 8 hours of fuel). The Waiex was more “fun” to fly. The Waiex controls are more balanced, with the pitch being similar to the XL but the roll much crisper than the XL. My Waiex had the Aerovee engine and it was very underpowered. Another Sonex at my airport with the Aerovee also was very underpowered so it wasn’t just my plane. I flew in a Sonex with a Jabiru 3300 and it was a real performer although to stay under the max LSA speed limit, you had to run the engine below the suggested cruising RPM. The Rans S19 has the same kind of “stretch the rule” philosophy. I think the 650 canopy latching design is better then the XL. The Sonex canopy is very flimsy and “designed to leak” at the front and especially at the gap on the rear.</p>
<p>All Zenith designs can be built from a kit or scratch built. Only the standard Sonex (not the Waiex, Zenos or Onex) can be scratch built and then you have to buy the spar from the company because it is a custom extrusion. All the parts of my Waiex were “beefy” and looked strong. Parts in the Zenith planes are “eloquently” designed with, I believe, equivalent strength to the Sonex parts.</p>
<p>Zenith plans (11x17) and Assembly Manual are great. Updates are available on the web, factory support is available anytime and you get real help and opinions. Sonex drawings are large (D size), not well organized with different models and options on the same sheet. There is no Assembly Manual, you are told to start with the smallest parts and just build! I have a friend building a RV12 and they may have gone one step better than Zenith. Their Assembly Manual is printed on their 11x17 drawings, putting instructions on the same piece of paper as the drawings. That is a major improvement for Vans from their “D” size drawings and no assembly manual for other designs. Sonex owners are a much more active group with fly-ins almost every month; probably because they got to know each other during the building process to make up for the lack of factory support.</p>
<p>Sonex gives e-mail support but their phone support is very limited and they wouldn’t help me with questions when I had problems with my Aerovee or give me any suggestions. When I asked John Monet the performance difference between the two propellers recommended in their documentation, he said that in all his years of experience, he would only recommended one of them! I tried a Aerocarb on my first XL (with a Jabiru 3300 engine) and it kept sticking. I sent it to the factory and they said it was good and said that they had never seen that problem. I offered to fly to their factory and show them the problem and they declined saying that they couldn’t look at a customer’s installation. The day after I traded my Waiex, Sonex canceled my access to their website; Zenith never did that to me. My 601XL kit and the Upgrade kit came complete. Everything I needed was in it. The Sonex kit, and their option kits, don’t come with hardware. Wicks and Aircraft Spruce both offer hardware kits but they have different parts and neither are as complete as what was supplied by Zenith as part of the kit price.</p>
<p>I like to travel in my plane, take people and baggage with me and fly in light IFR conditions. I don’t like to go up for an hour, by myself, on sunny days and do aerobatics. After the plane is built, these are the differences. Mission, Mission, Mission. The 601XL is for me, that is why I have a second one!</p> I'm glad you posted this Seba…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-09:2606393:Comment:1737502011-11-09T11:53:40.359ZDavid Petersonhttps://zenith.aero/profile/DavidPeterson
I'm glad you posted this Sebastien and I think it's a worthy examination. I'm glad to see Zenith continue to stand behind the 650 and there is no doubt that the recent shakedowns and consequent mods make it one of the safest and most thoroughly scrutinized GA (not just LSA) aircraft around today. Case in point - I doubt many other aircraft of similar category have had comprehensive full scale (i.e. actual airframe) dynamic response / GVT testing, for example!<br />
<br />
Zenith's reputation for support is…
I'm glad you posted this Sebastien and I think it's a worthy examination. I'm glad to see Zenith continue to stand behind the 650 and there is no doubt that the recent shakedowns and consequent mods make it one of the safest and most thoroughly scrutinized GA (not just LSA) aircraft around today. Case in point - I doubt many other aircraft of similar category have had comprehensive full scale (i.e. actual airframe) dynamic response / GVT testing, for example!<br />
<br />
Zenith's reputation for support is also a major factor, as are avenues such as this site which provide a fantastic way for the Zenith community globally to connect. Keep up the great work and the customers will continue to figure out the rest! :) I have built both , the sonex…tag:zenith.aero,2011-11-09:2606393:Comment:1736472011-11-09T05:23:25.697ZTracy Buttleshttps://zenith.aero/profile/TracyButtles
<p>I have built both , the sonex with a VW is just too under powered so the only engine option is the 3300 , then there is issues with the cooling , nose gear, range and definetly room! Of course the price goes up with the 3300 </p>
<p> The sonex is realisticly a 1 1/2 person plane. Its true its a strong airplane, but overbuilt.</p>
<p> the 601/650 is so much more room. Baggage area, range with the bigger wing tanks,forward visabilty,ease of construction.</p>
<p>and the guys at Zenith…</p>
<p>I have built both , the sonex with a VW is just too under powered so the only engine option is the 3300 , then there is issues with the cooling , nose gear, range and definetly room! Of course the price goes up with the 3300 </p>
<p> The sonex is realisticly a 1 1/2 person plane. Its true its a strong airplane, but overbuilt.</p>
<p> the 601/650 is so much more room. Baggage area, range with the bigger wing tanks,forward visabilty,ease of construction.</p>
<p>and the guys at Zenith treat you like family!!!</p>