Alternative fuel system!! - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-29T02:28:15Zhttps://zenith.aero/forum/topics/alternative-fuel-system?feed=yes&xn_auth=nothe fuel shuts off, for those…tag:zenith.aero,2017-01-16:2606393:Comment:5460662017-01-16T10:16:20.290ZMichael W Mallockhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MichaelWMallock
<p>the fuel shuts off, for those of us with fuel injection, regardless of positive shutoff, no power... no fuel, but having two separate fuel systems helps, if power is lost to one side the other should be available.</p>
<p>the fuel shuts off, for those of us with fuel injection, regardless of positive shutoff, no power... no fuel, but having two separate fuel systems helps, if power is lost to one side the other should be available.</p> The pump is positive shut off…tag:zenith.aero,2017-01-15:2606393:Comment:5459832017-01-15T21:22:54.161ZStefan carlssonhttps://zenith.aero/profile/Stefancarlsson
The pump is positive shut off so no mechanical valve required,<br />
What will hapen if you loose power?
The pump is positive shut off so no mechanical valve required,<br />
What will hapen if you loose power? picstag:zenith.aero,2016-09-21:2606393:Comment:5280892016-09-21T15:56:48.765ZMichael W Mallockhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MichaelWMallock
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019065?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019065?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a> <a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019604?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019604?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a></p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019065?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019065?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" class="align-full"/></a><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019604?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2171019604?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" class="align-full"/></a>pics</p> Well here is the right wing,…tag:zenith.aero,2016-09-21:2606393:Comment:5282522016-09-21T15:54:29.320ZMichael W Mallockhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MichaelWMallock
<p>Well here is the right wing, pump, low pressure filter, restrictor on return line to maintain required pressure at the Viking 170hp engine. The pump is positive shut off so no mechanical valve required, 24 gallons in the right wing and 24 gallons in the left wing, each "system" will be controlled by its own switch, the fuel lines will be routed down the forward top cabin frame tubes and will exit the cabin frame on the engine side of the firewall which eliminates any fuel in the cabin area.…</p>
<p>Well here is the right wing, pump, low pressure filter, restrictor on return line to maintain required pressure at the Viking 170hp engine. The pump is positive shut off so no mechanical valve required, 24 gallons in the right wing and 24 gallons in the left wing, each "system" will be controlled by its own switch, the fuel lines will be routed down the forward top cabin frame tubes and will exit the cabin frame on the engine side of the firewall which eliminates any fuel in the cabin area. i will also install my flow transducer in the wing as this will be my primary fuel measurement instrument.</p> Michael, my fuel pumps are in…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-28:2606393:Comment:5033242016-04-28T11:51:16.377ZPatrick Hoythttps://zenith.aero/profile/PatrickHoyt
<p>Michael, my fuel pumps are in series. One I call "Pump A", and the other I call "Pump B". I have an aviation-quality toggle switch on my panel that controls them. No check valves.</p>
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<p>Photos here (the pumps are the gold cubes with red labels, and "A" and "B" can be seen):</p>
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<p> <a href="http://www.zenith.aero/photo/fuel-flow-test-2?context=user" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.zenith.aero/photo/fuel-flow-test-2?context=user</a></p>
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<p>Michael, my fuel pumps are in series. One I call "Pump A", and the other I call "Pump B". I have an aviation-quality toggle switch on my panel that controls them. No check valves.</p>
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<p>Photos here (the pumps are the gold cubes with red labels, and "A" and "B" can be seen):</p>
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<p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.zenith.aero/photo/fuel-flow-test-2?context=user" target="_blank">http://www.zenith.aero/photo/fuel-flow-test-2?context=user</a></p>
<p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.zenith.aero/photo/removing-engine?context=user" target="_blank">http://www.zenith.aero/photo/removing-engine?context=user</a></p>
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<p>I followed a lot of the guidance from this page on flycorvair.com (which shows a wiring diagram including these "A & B" fuel pumps along with an "A & B" ignition: <a rel="nofollow" href="https://flycorvair.net/2014/10/09/3410-nason-switch-for-planes-with-electric-fuel-pumps/" target="_blank">https://flycorvair.net/2014/10/09/3410-nason-switch-for-planes-with...</a></p>
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<p>There's a ton of good aviation & homebuilding stuff on that website, even if you're not going with a Corvair engine - it's worth a look...</p>
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<p>Thanks for the compliment.</p>
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<p>- Pat</p> Patrick;
That sounds like an…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-28:2606393:Comment:5031352016-04-28T06:02:52.775ZMichael W Mallockhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MichaelWMallock
<p>Patrick;</p>
<p>That sounds like an intelligent solution to the issue of measurable reserve fuel, we all get nervous when the needle is bouncing on the "E" This will allow more complete fuel utilization without risk of an engine out when sucking one tank dry.</p>
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<p>When you say dual, inline, fail open pumps, do you mean they are plumbed in series, one flows through the other, or parallel with one way check valves down stream so they cant back feed into the adjacent pump? Or do the…</p>
<p>Patrick;</p>
<p>That sounds like an intelligent solution to the issue of measurable reserve fuel, we all get nervous when the needle is bouncing on the "E" This will allow more complete fuel utilization without risk of an engine out when sucking one tank dry.</p>
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<p>When you say dual, inline, fail open pumps, do you mean they are plumbed in series, one flows through the other, or parallel with one way check valves down stream so they cant back feed into the adjacent pump? Or do the pumps have one way valves built in?</p>
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<p>For my build I am installing dual 12 gallon tanks in each wing, so if one side does fail, I would default to the same range as a stock 24 gallon capacity plane!</p>
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<p>Thanks for sharing your idea!</p>
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<p>P.S. your plane is beautiful...</p>
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<p>MWM</p>
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<p></p> Michael, I've been thinking a…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-26:2606393:Comment:5029912016-04-26T22:08:39.926ZPatrick Hoythttps://zenith.aero/profile/PatrickHoyt
<p>Michael, I've been thinking along similar lines...<br></br><br></br>In practice, when flying my airplane with it's two wing tanks, I find myself ALWAYS carrying around at least 5 gallons in each tank. <br></br><br></br>Why 5 gallons in each tank? Because due to wing dihedral there can be anywhere between zero and 5 gallons in a tank and I'm not able to see it or test it's level with a fuel stick. And I never get anywhere close to empty on either tank (thus risking an in-flight engine…</p>
<p>Michael, I've been thinking along similar lines...<br/><br/>In practice, when flying my airplane with it's two wing tanks, I find myself ALWAYS carrying around at least 5 gallons in each tank. <br/><br/>Why 5 gallons in each tank? Because due to wing dihedral there can be anywhere between zero and 5 gallons in a tank and I'm not able to see it or test it's level with a fuel stick. And I never get anywhere close to empty on either tank (thus risking an in-flight engine stoppage).<br/><br/>5 gallons per tank, and with a tank in each wing that means 60 lbs of sloshing dead weight being carried around all the time. And that's a minimum (and I don't trust fuel gauges, especially when they're edging towards "empty" while at 3,000 AGL). <br/><br/>So I'm thinking of re-doing my fuel system by setting it up follows:<br/><br/>a) Plumb the right wing tank directly to the carb (keeping existing fuel pumps as described below).<br/> <br/>b) Plumb the left wing tank directly to the right wing tank, with a fuel pump (and a check-valve) in that line. This fuel pump would be turned on/off by a switch in the cockpit and would only pump fuel from the left tank into the right tank.<br/><br/>c) Replace the existing Fuel Selector Valve (along with the associated fuel lines and connections inside the cockpit) with a shutoff valve on the right tank's fuel line (the left tank is "off by default" unless its pump is actively transferring fuel from it into the other tank).<br/><br/>Instead of a pump in each wing, an already-common practice is to use dual, inline, "fail-open" fuel pumps which are mounted on the firewall, and to only run one OR the other pump at a time (not both). This is what I have been using on my airplane since day one, and I would keep this method (before anyone cry's "what about Vapor Lock", know that this has been standard practice among Corvair powered airplanes for years).<br/><br/>Everything else (vents, drains, gas caps, gascolator) stays the same. <br/><br/>I think this would allow me to safely use ALL of the fuel in the left tank, and would eliminate much of the in-flight fuel management worries, particularly when the SUM TOTAL quantity of fuel on-board the aircraft is less than 15 gallons (for example, contrast "9 gallons in the right tank", versus the guessing game of "3? or 4? or 5? in one tank and 3? or 4? or 5? in the other tank"). <br/><br/>Patrick Hoyt<br/>N63PZ<br/><br/></p> That's why I won't fly twins.…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-25:2606393:Comment:5027622016-04-25T15:21:10.562ZKen Ryanhttps://zenith.aero/profile/KenRyan
<p>That's why I won't fly twins. Twice as likely to have engine failure. :)</p>
<p>That's why I won't fly twins. Twice as likely to have engine failure. :)</p> I would think, and this is me…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-25:2606393:Comment:5026132016-04-25T09:04:12.430ZRobin Szemetihttps://zenith.aero/profile/RobinSzemeti
<blockquote><p>I would think, and this is me thinking out loud, that with two pumps and two filters, even if they are on single tanks, that it makes it less likely of a dual failure.</p>
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<p>The difference is in the current system the pumps are in parallel, BOTH have to fail before you get any sort of problem ... in the proposed system EITHER one failing causes a problem ...</p>
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<p>Its exactly the same with mags ... you put two mags and two plugs on each cyclinder…</p>
<blockquote><p>I would think, and this is me thinking out loud, that with two pumps and two filters, even if they are on single tanks, that it makes it less likely of a dual failure.</p>
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<p>The difference is in the current system the pumps are in parallel, BOTH have to fail before you get any sort of problem ... in the proposed system EITHER one failing causes a problem ...</p>
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<p>Its exactly the same with mags ... you put two mags and two plugs on each cyclinder BOTH mags would have to fail to cause a problem ... if you had arranged the mags with one running the left bank of cylinders (two plugs per cylinder) , the other running the right bank of cylinders EITHER mag would cause a problem if it failed, which is why we don;t do it that way.</p>
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<p>Its not just the number of things, its how you arrange them ... more is not always better.</p>
<p></p> I suggest you re-read the bit…tag:zenith.aero,2016-04-25:2606393:Comment:5026122016-04-25T09:02:41.881ZRobin Szemetihttps://zenith.aero/profile/RobinSzemeti
<p>I suggest you re-read the bit where is says "I know these are not real figures, it's just an illustration"</p>
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<p>The rest I agree with, simplest is always best, and if there is a single point of failure, put a second one in parallel.</p>
<p>I suggest you re-read the bit where is says "I know these are not real figures, it's just an illustration"</p>
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<p>The rest I agree with, simplest is always best, and if there is a single point of failure, put a second one in parallel.</p>