"Aircraft Quality" - Something To Think About. - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-28T12:15:42Zhttps://zenith.aero/forum/topics/aircraft-quality-something-to-think-about?commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A142929&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYes, the Tucker used Franklin…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-12:2606393:Comment:1445982011-08-12T02:42:05.686ZBob Pustellhttps://zenith.aero/profile/BobPustell
<p>Yes, the Tucker used Franklin engines. Franklin had a 65 percent market share in light aircraft engines before Tucker bought the company to get engines for his cars (because he did not have deep enough pockets to develop his own engine and the big auto makers would not sell him engines, he bought an airplane engine company). He canceled all outstanding aircraft engine orders and stopped taking orders from anyone. Then, he had Franklin concentrate on the engine for his car. Then, his car went…</p>
<p>Yes, the Tucker used Franklin engines. Franklin had a 65 percent market share in light aircraft engines before Tucker bought the company to get engines for his cars (because he did not have deep enough pockets to develop his own engine and the big auto makers would not sell him engines, he bought an airplane engine company). He canceled all outstanding aircraft engine orders and stopped taking orders from anyone. Then, he had Franklin concentrate on the engine for his car. Then, his car went bust. Franklin never recovered. It went from the dominant engine in the field to a straggler who never recovered. They shut down in the 70's.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My 1947 Stinson has a 165 HP Franklin. Fabulous engine!! Smooth and strong. Way ahead of the others. A worn out Franklin has tighter internal tolerances than a brand new Lycoming or Continental. Replaceable cylinder liners, balanced components, inspectable bottom end, the list goes on and on. What a shame that the engine line fell victim to auto maker politics. There is a move afoot now to bring back the line, I hope it prospers.</p> Mack,
The Tucker used a Frank…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-12:2606393:Comment:1445842011-08-12T01:57:28.460ZLouis W. Otthttps://zenith.aero/profile/LouisWOtt
<p>Mack,</p>
<p>The Tucker used a Franklin engine. I think an O-335. Inline 4 cyl engines have a nasty 2nd order harmonic vibration. It can be minimized by using two balance shafts rotating at twice crankshaft RPM. Mitsubishi pioneered relatively modern use of the balance shafts. Other companies such as Porsche (944, 968), Saab, Fiat, and others licensed Mitsubishi technology for their inline fours. Opposed engines are inherently balanced and need no balance shafts.…</p>
<p>Mack,</p>
<p>The Tucker used a Franklin engine. I think an O-335. Inline 4 cyl engines have a nasty 2nd order harmonic vibration. It can be minimized by using two balance shafts rotating at twice crankshaft RPM. Mitsubishi pioneered relatively modern use of the balance shafts. Other companies such as Porsche (944, 968), Saab, Fiat, and others licensed Mitsubishi technology for their inline fours. Opposed engines are inherently balanced and need no balance shafts. <a href="http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth2.htm</a></p> Looks like I got to add my 2…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-10:2606393:Comment:1438912011-08-10T12:48:05.386ZChris Aysenhttps://zenith.aero/profile/ChrisAysen
<p>Looks like I got to add my 2 cents also. Geoff you make a very good point. When you look at the Lyc. and Cont. they have been around for a long time and are PROVEN quality. However, the catagory of Light Sport offers some unique challenges (weight sensitivity for one). I think thats why Jan's engine can find a place in the market. But I think inherit with any NEW technology new challenges arise. I find, for auto-conversions, its going to be the amount of time the engine can stay at an…</p>
<p>Looks like I got to add my 2 cents also. Geoff you make a very good point. When you look at the Lyc. and Cont. they have been around for a long time and are PROVEN quality. However, the catagory of Light Sport offers some unique challenges (weight sensitivity for one). I think thats why Jan's engine can find a place in the market. But I think inherit with any NEW technology new challenges arise. I find, for auto-conversions, its going to be the amount of time the engine can stay at an elevated rpm range without to much negative affect on the internals, not normal for its initial purpose. Most auto engines do their jobs in the cars at half or less than rpm range required for that same engine in an aircraft. But we are making advances in oil viscosities and metallurgy so its a wait-n-see proposition. I don't believe we can use the argument of BMWs in WWI. The infantcy of flight can't be a standard we have made leap years of advances in comparison. Geoff is totally right in my opinion when he supports proven technology. However, common sense tells us anything can happen at anytime; its just what are the odds.I like water cooled aircraft engines thats just me personally. Jan's engine is a step in the right direction and he's right in having TOTAL belief in his engine; if he doesn't then the project would probably fail. At the same time he should realize that challenges are still ahead. I do hope the engine can meet those challenges.</p>
<p>Geoff's take on quality of materials is also a factor; main reason; LIABILITY. Lyc. and Cont. are probably exposed to liability more than all other engine manufacturers (general aviation) put together. However, I have no doubt that some things fall thru the cracks sometimes. But I would assume they take quality VERY SERIOUSLY. It is common practice in the manufacturing of any product to pass on substandard parts to areas of less liability. </p> Got to add my 2-bits.
You for…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-10:2606393:Comment:1434132011-08-10T04:09:17.442ZMack P. Kreizenbeckhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MackPKreizenbeck
<p>Got to add my 2-bits.</p>
<p>You forgot about the Tucker Automobile!</p>
<p>Used a Cont. or a Lyc. (can't remember which) 6 cylinder in the area where the trunk is supposed to be. Water cooled too.</p>
<p>Fastest car made during the 1940's - set a world records, with marathons at a continuous 100+ MPH.</p>
<p>Now, who said they didn't use aircraft engines in autos?</p>
<p>Couldn't match the quality, safety and engineering aspects of the car so GM, Ford, Chrysler and a couple of others (who…</p>
<p>Got to add my 2-bits.</p>
<p>You forgot about the Tucker Automobile!</p>
<p>Used a Cont. or a Lyc. (can't remember which) 6 cylinder in the area where the trunk is supposed to be. Water cooled too.</p>
<p>Fastest car made during the 1940's - set a world records, with marathons at a continuous 100+ MPH.</p>
<p>Now, who said they didn't use aircraft engines in autos?</p>
<p>Couldn't match the quality, safety and engineering aspects of the car so GM, Ford, Chrysler and a couple of others (who are no longer in business) ganged up and put Tucker out of business by using tactics not becoming to corporations.</p>
<p>Sorry about the history lesson - got carried away.</p>
<p>Mack</p> There are several BMW motorcy…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-10:2606393:Comment:1434102011-08-10T03:20:46.098ZBob Pustellhttps://zenith.aero/profile/BobPustell
<p>There are several BMW motorcycle engine powered airplanes flying. Same logo. Great engines. They make enough power to fly a two seat plane.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I saw one installation years ago where the builder used the motorcyle transmission as his reduction drive. At the time I saw it he had all the gears in the tranny and was experimenting with different reduction ratios by the simple expedient of shifting the gears in the tranny. Once he found the gear that worked best, he planned to remove…</p>
<p>There are several BMW motorcycle engine powered airplanes flying. Same logo. Great engines. They make enough power to fly a two seat plane.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I saw one installation years ago where the builder used the motorcyle transmission as his reduction drive. At the time I saw it he had all the gears in the tranny and was experimenting with different reduction ratios by the simple expedient of shifting the gears in the tranny. Once he found the gear that worked best, he planned to remove the surplus parts to save weight and just have the gearset he needed. I never saw that rig again, do not know how reliable and effective it turned out to be.</p>
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<p>For sure, many homebuilts have flown on motorcyle engine power, and many are to this day.</p> Hi Steve Weston:
It really…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-10:2606393:Comment:1434052011-08-10T01:43:05.623ZBrian Fitzpatrickhttps://zenith.aero/profile/BrianFitzpatrick
<p>Hi Steve Weston:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It really does go both ways. Look at the BMW car logo. As you know it is circular. Divided into two white triangles and two blue triangles joined at the apex.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This logo represents a blurring white propellor against a blue sky.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>BMW was one of, if not the first aircraft engine manufacturer to supply engines for fighter planes back in World War One. The engine was a derivative of a BMW auto engine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It was water…</p>
<p>Hi Steve Weston:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It really does go both ways. Look at the BMW car logo. As you know it is circular. Divided into two white triangles and two blue triangles joined at the apex.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This logo represents a blurring white propellor against a blue sky.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>BMW was one of, if not the first aircraft engine manufacturer to supply engines for fighter planes back in World War One. The engine was a derivative of a BMW auto engine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It was water cooled and very successful and I believe they made engines for the Luftwaffe during the second period of unpleasantness as well. If any one has comments I would be pleased to hear them as my knowledge is limited.</p>
<p>I would be pleased to make that logo fly again but cant seem to find a BMW car engine light enough for my 750. Brian</p>
<p> </p> My initial reply was just to…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-09:2606393:Comment:1430052011-08-09T10:51:24.583ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<div style="clear: both;"><p>My initial reply was just to say the Viking layout is very simple. The most popular light aircraft engine, EVER .. has a reduction drive, some liquid cooling to prevent cylinder hot spots, needs a battery to start, turns 5800 for takeoff, has a good reputation but is a little pricy. The Viking has this engines attributes but simplified and overall stronger construction. Don't be afraid to admit that an inline 4 is as simple as it gets. I am happy the propeller loads…</p>
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<div style="clear: both;"><p>My initial reply was just to say the Viking layout is very simple. The most popular light aircraft engine, EVER .. has a reduction drive, some liquid cooling to prevent cylinder hot spots, needs a battery to start, turns 5800 for takeoff, has a good reputation but is a little pricy. The Viking has this engines attributes but simplified and overall stronger construction. Don't be afraid to admit that an inline 4 is as simple as it gets. I am happy the propeller loads are not on the crankshaft, that the viking does not have 12 high tension sparkplug wires (it has 0), that only 4, not 12 plugs has to be inspected, etc. Good and bad with every design - the discussion was about simplicity - The Vikings inline 4 design will win that part of the design contest every time. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jan</p>
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<p> </p> How many geared reduction dri…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-09:2606393:Comment:1432572011-08-09T02:14:33.353ZTim Treathttps://zenith.aero/profile/TimTreat
<p>How many geared reduction drives on a 6 cyl air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How much coolant in an air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How many batteries are REQUIRED to start and run a 6 cyl air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How many revs on a 6 cyl air cooled - 1/2 the Viking</p>
<p>How many spark plugs in the viking - 4 6 cyl air cooled - 12</p>
<p>How many hours have been logged on a viking engine - ???</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm restating my personal engine criteria using your sales scoring system. I still like my…</p>
<p>How many geared reduction drives on a 6 cyl air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How much coolant in an air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How many batteries are REQUIRED to start and run a 6 cyl air cooled - 0</p>
<p>How many revs on a 6 cyl air cooled - 1/2 the Viking</p>
<p>How many spark plugs in the viking - 4 6 cyl air cooled - 12</p>
<p>How many hours have been logged on a viking engine - ???</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm restating my personal engine criteria using your sales scoring system. I still like my decision.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You crack me up. Are you capable of discussing your product without putting everyone else down? We are not idiots. Lay out your features and benefits and let us decide. I still can't figure out if your engine is a Honda or not. Your info is conflicting. Is the core engine new?</p> "I'm all for progress, techno…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-09:2606393:Comment:1431632011-08-09T01:43:26.629ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<p>"I'm all for progress, technology and competition, but sometimes simplicity is trumps."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nothing like an inline 4. Can't get much simpler. Ever seen an exhaust system <br></br>on an opposed 4 cylinder engine? How about a 6 of the same power? How about a <br></br>Viking exhaust?</p>
<p>How many EGT probes and wires to monitor a 6 cylinder air <br></br>cooled? 6<br></br>How many for the Viking? 0<br></br>How many CHT probes to know what is going on for the air cooled 6? 6<br></br>How many on the…</p>
<p>"I'm all for progress, technology and competition, but sometimes simplicity is trumps."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nothing like an inline 4. Can't get much simpler. Ever seen an exhaust system <br/>on an opposed 4 cylinder engine? How about a 6 of the same power? How about a <br/>Viking exhaust?</p>
<p>How many EGT probes and wires to monitor a 6 cylinder air <br/>cooled? 6<br/>How many for the Viking? 0<br/>How many CHT probes to know what is going on for the air cooled 6? 6<br/>How many on the Viking, to have a complete picture? 1 (coolant temp)<br/>How many exhaust gaskets to replace on the 6cyl air cooled at 500 hr inspection? <br/>6<br/>How about the Viking? 1<br/>How about leaky Valve cover gaskets? 6 and 1? Yes, that is right.</p>
<p>The Viking is a simple powerful engine</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jan</p> Hope your not building an air…tag:zenith.aero,2011-08-08:2606393:Comment:1429292011-08-08T21:49:15.104ZPaul Bonaserahttps://zenith.aero/profile/PaulBonasera
Hope your not building an aircraft with those noncertified pop rivits, brakes, wing struts, and glass panels, just to put a certifed engine in front of it. Do you think Matco buyes there bearings from the same place Cleavland does? I would guess from the price differance, NO.
Hope your not building an aircraft with those noncertified pop rivits, brakes, wing struts, and glass panels, just to put a certifed engine in front of it. Do you think Matco buyes there bearings from the same place Cleavland does? I would guess from the price differance, NO.