AGE old debate settled! - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-28T14:14:10Zhttps://zenith.aero/forum/topics/age-old-debate-settled?commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A659613&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI am happily flying a 750 STO…tag:zenith.aero,2023-01-06:2606393:Comment:8884942023-01-06T07:08:28.658ZMatt Buntonhttps://zenith.aero/profile/MattBunton
<p>I am happily flying a 750 STOL with a Viking 130. I’m not an expert on anything but I do have some real world experience on repurposed car engines. I have thousands of hours on Chrysler, Chevy and Ford car engines powering irrigation pumps. These engines run days at a time at full load and high rpm. I can’t think of a single engine failure caused by the load or the rpm’s. <br/>I expect my Viking will outlast me.</p>
<p>I am happily flying a 750 STOL with a Viking 130. I’m not an expert on anything but I do have some real world experience on repurposed car engines. I have thousands of hours on Chrysler, Chevy and Ford car engines powering irrigation pumps. These engines run days at a time at full load and high rpm. I can’t think of a single engine failure caused by the load or the rpm’s. <br/>I expect my Viking will outlast me.</p> I do not know where your gett…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596762018-12-30T23:21:23.404ZLoren Warnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/LorenWarner
<p>I do not know where your getting your website data, but the Viking 130's max rpm is 5400 rpm, not 5800, and cruise is between 4600 to 4800 rpm, not 5200 rpm.</p>
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<p>By the way, I used to run my boats GM 454 at 4200 rpm all day long, and when I sold it with around 850 hrs, the compression was as good as new, with same high fuel consumption as when new, averaged 1nm/gal. Bet you never saw a 454 run continuously at those high rpms before in a car, but it worked well in my boat. So…</p>
<p>I do not know where your getting your website data, but the Viking 130's max rpm is 5400 rpm, not 5800, and cruise is between 4600 to 4800 rpm, not 5200 rpm.</p>
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<p>By the way, I used to run my boats GM 454 at 4200 rpm all day long, and when I sold it with around 850 hrs, the compression was as good as new, with same high fuel consumption as when new, averaged 1nm/gal. Bet you never saw a 454 run continuously at those high rpms before in a car, but it worked well in my boat. So long as the engine is not overloaded, it'll be fine. </p> Absolutely correct , Lauren.…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596742018-12-30T22:14:28.966ZJoshua smithhttps://zenith.aero/profile/Joshuasmith
<p>Absolutely correct , Lauren.</p>
<p>The website says 5200 cruise, 5800 max.</p>
<p> My bad...I’m used to Rotax numbers.</p>
<p> I still wouldn’t drive my Honda Fit at 5200 rpm for hours on end in cruise mode, </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Absolutely correct , Lauren.</p>
<p>The website says 5200 cruise, 5800 max.</p>
<p> My bad...I’m used to Rotax numbers.</p>
<p> I still wouldn’t drive my Honda Fit at 5200 rpm for hours on end in cruise mode, </p>
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<p> </p> I don't understand why you pe…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6594972018-12-30T21:23:00.752ZLoren Warnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/LorenWarner
<p>I don't understand why you persist with 6,000 rpm. If I recall correctly, Honda's red line limit is between 6,000 to 6,600, not Vikings. The established full power or max rpm for the Viking 130 is 5,400 rpm, which is during takeoff or climbing. Honda sets the engines V-tec to kick in at around 5,100 rpm, so they obviously expect the engine to rev at least that high, which is great for takeoff. We are still in Phase 1 so unsure what best cruise rpms will be, but expect well under 5,000.…</p>
<p>I don't understand why you persist with 6,000 rpm. If I recall correctly, Honda's red line limit is between 6,000 to 6,600, not Vikings. The established full power or max rpm for the Viking 130 is 5,400 rpm, which is during takeoff or climbing. Honda sets the engines V-tec to kick in at around 5,100 rpm, so they obviously expect the engine to rev at least that high, which is great for takeoff. We are still in Phase 1 so unsure what best cruise rpms will be, but expect well under 5,000. The Viking engine's are tuned through the ECU for these operating conditions. Those Viking owners who have problems will share their experience, and future buyers and builders are smart enough to research the matter and decide for themselves. </p> Irrelevant? Seems to be the e…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596702018-12-30T19:42:41.703ZJoshua smithhttps://zenith.aero/profile/Joshuasmith
<p>Irrelevant? Seems to be the exact same question...worded differently.</p>
<p>no, I would NOT drive my Honda at 6k rpm. Why? Because it wouldn’t last....the maximum power setting of continuous 6k rpm would prematurely destroy the engine., or the belt, or the altanator, or water pump, or blow a hose, etc....</p>
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<p> and That is why I won’t put one on my plane. If I won’t drive it and use it that way on the ground....why would I put the exact same engine in an…</p>
<p>Irrelevant? Seems to be the exact same question...worded differently.</p>
<p>no, I would NOT drive my Honda at 6k rpm. Why? Because it wouldn’t last....the maximum power setting of continuous 6k rpm would prematurely destroy the engine., or the belt, or the altanator, or water pump, or blow a hose, etc....</p>
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<p> and That is why I won’t put one on my plane. If I won’t drive it and use it that way on the ground....why would I put the exact same engine in an airplane???</p>
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<p> 1000 out of 1000 people will tell you that if you drove your Honda around in 2 nd gear, 6k rpm all day. It would destroy itself prematurely. Every one of those people would NOT drive their car that way. Why would I or anybody FLY the same engine that way ? I am completely lost.</p>
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<p> As soon as someone comes up with a CVT transmission you can put on a plane...I would be the first to throw it on a Honda, and fly behind it.</p>
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<p> Uniformed bashing? ...like your first reply to me? Is it settled now ?</p>
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<p>I’m not convinced. Not settled for me.</p>
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<p> </p> The question you pose "Would…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6594162018-12-30T19:06:57.268ZKen Ryanhttps://zenith.aero/profile/KenRyan
<p>The question you pose "Would you drive your car at 6000 rpm?" is irrelevant as to whether or not the Honda Fit auto engine is suitable for conversion to power an aircraft.</p>
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<p>However, your observation does naturally lead to a highly relevant question, "What is the maximum continuous power setting for this engine that is consistent with acceptable reliability and durability?"</p>
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<p>The fact that Honda itself implements these engines in their marine applications, and rates…</p>
<p>The question you pose "Would you drive your car at 6000 rpm?" is irrelevant as to whether or not the Honda Fit auto engine is suitable for conversion to power an aircraft.</p>
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<p>However, your observation does naturally lead to a highly relevant question, "What is the maximum continuous power setting for this engine that is consistent with acceptable reliability and durability?"</p>
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<p>The fact that Honda itself implements these engines in their marine applications, and rates them to operate at 5000-6000 rpm provides good insight to the answer to that question.</p>
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<p>Questions are good. Accurate information is good. Uninformed bashing, not so much.</p>
<p></p> Thank you.
your argument is t…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596142018-12-30T18:08:04.921ZJoshua smithhttps://zenith.aero/profile/Joshuasmith
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>your argument is that an outboard for your boat is a good choice for your airplane?</p>
<p>ok...if you say so.</p>
<p>the outboard is timed, tuned, built, and geared completely different than a Honda Fit engine. Come on, man... Really?</p>
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<p>full throttle range 5-6000 rpm. Exactly my point. Full throttle all the time.</p>
<p>i don’t drive my car, airplane, 4 wheeler, tractor, r/c plane or dog at full throttle all the time.</p>
<p>thats just stupid…</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>your argument is that an outboard for your boat is a good choice for your airplane?</p>
<p>ok...if you say so.</p>
<p>the outboard is timed, tuned, built, and geared completely different than a Honda Fit engine. Come on, man... Really?</p>
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<p>full throttle range 5-6000 rpm. Exactly my point. Full throttle all the time.</p>
<p>i don’t drive my car, airplane, 4 wheeler, tractor, r/c plane or dog at full throttle all the time.</p>
<p>thats just stupid !</p>
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<p> Fully aware that there are auto conversions, and that they have reliably powered aircraft for as long as they’ve been around.</p>
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<p> But not one that I know of that operates at 6-7 k rpm ALL THE TIME.</p>
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<p>they are usually used to LOWER rpm, and ENHANCE reliability. </p>
<p>Seems Viking and aeromomentum are going the other way.</p>
<p>i don’t get it, makes no sense to me.</p>
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<p>to each their own, just think the questions should be asked for future buyers and builders.</p>
<p>would you drive your car at 6000 rpm?</p>
<p>then why put the same engine in an airplane and drive it that way?</p>
<p>thanks for the replies, good chat..the Cowboys are playing. </p>
<p>Happy New Year </p> BF75-90-100
Full throttle rp…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6594902018-12-30T17:46:15.638ZKen Ryanhttps://zenith.aero/profile/KenRyan
<p><a href="https://m.marine.honda.com/outboards/models/midrange" rel="noopener" target="_blank">BF75-90-100</a></p>
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<p><a href="https://m.marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF75-90-100" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Full throttle rpm range: 5000-6000</a></p>
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<p><a href="https://www.pietenpolaircraftcompany.com/pietenpol-air-camper-history" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Auto engines have been used in aircraft for a long, long time.</a></p>
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<p>Click the links to…</p>
<p><a href="https://m.marine.honda.com/outboards/models/midrange" target="_blank" rel="noopener">BF75-90-100</a></p>
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<p><a href="https://m.marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF75-90-100" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Full throttle rpm range: 5000-6000</a></p>
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<p><a href="https://www.pietenpolaircraftcompany.com/pietenpol-air-camper-history" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Auto engines have been used in aircraft for a long, long time.</a></p>
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<p>Click the links to learn more.</p> Again...what marine applicati…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596132018-12-30T17:36:13.550ZJoshua smithhttps://zenith.aero/profile/Joshuasmith
<p>Again...what marine applications? </p>
<p> I am not doubting that Honda makes a great engine. They do.</p>
<p>but This engine is designed and built to operate between 1500-3000 rpm, sustainably and reliably. Almost ALL auto engines are.</p>
<p>Again...what marine applications? </p>
<p> I am not doubting that Honda makes a great engine. They do.</p>
<p>but This engine is designed and built to operate between 1500-3000 rpm, sustainably and reliably. Almost ALL auto engines are.</p> Would Honda use their auto en…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-30:2606393:Comment:6596122018-12-30T17:13:27.851ZKen Ryanhttps://zenith.aero/profile/KenRyan
<p>Would Honda use their auto engines in marine applications if they were prone to break?</p>
<p>Would Honda use their auto engines in marine applications if they were prone to break?</p>